Literal Scratch
Episode 41: Power Up Story vs. Better Together Story and Who Builds Them
Reps don't care until either their customers do or they're getting paid to do it.
Better together stories are table stakes for partners.
But you better have a compelling Power Up story so that you get the chance to talk about the better together story.
Check out our sponsor Fluincy.
Reps don't care until either their customers do or they're getting paid to do it.
Better together stories are table stakes for partners.
But you better have a compelling Power Up story so that you get the chance to talk about the better together story.
Check out our sponsor Fluincy.
boom recording when we're back.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh hey doing the things yeah, we're just like three balls of enthusiasm today. We're just uh, we're starting it right off with just so much uh, vigor bringing energy. Yeah so much. Yeah, I was, uh, I was digging holes in my backyard before I started this. This is Literal Scratch, the podcast where three friends, brought together by partnerships, dig deep into that world with authenticity, vulnerability and a touch of humor. We're here to share our experiences, challenges and successes and to help each other grow in the partnership space. Whether you're a seasoned pro in partnerships or just starting out, join us as we navigate the twists and turns of our professional lives, sharing insights and learning from each other along the way. Welcome to Literal Scratch.
Speaker 3:What are you planting?
Speaker 1:before, what are you planting? Well, we built, we built a little fenced garden, um, for my parents to grow things in, and they've, they've bought the plants and, uh, my dad is growing, is gonna grow potatoes. Um, I've never, I've never grown potatoes before. I. I'm not growing anything. They're growing everything, but you grow. I didn't know this but, you grow potatoes in hay, did you all know this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've seen lots of ways to grow potatoes Like you grow them in hay. I do not. I am the urban.
Speaker 2:Midwesterner, I know nothing of farming.
Speaker 1:You can stack tires. Is that what you just said?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, like people do that with hay or the same thing, basically you grow potatoes and as they start to grow you put another layer of something on top of them and then you cover that in dirt and then they grow up through that and you just keep covering them up all summer long and in the fall you just take your tower down and you've got a tower of potatoes. And people have done that in tires.
Speaker 2:We don't, because I feel like tires are probably laced with all sorts of like chemicals and things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, but that's where I've seen that first happen.
Speaker 2:I mean, I live in Arkansas, so that's fascinating Things that root vegetables would definitely absorb, 100% For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this has a Goodyear flavor.
Speaker 3:That's from the Goodyear lair. Yeah, oh, that was a Michelin tater. Those are my bad guys. Don't eat the Michelin lair.
Speaker 2:What no? The Michelin's at the three-star restaurant.
Speaker 1:Oh, look at you, what a quip.
Speaker 2:Making the connections.
Speaker 1:Ridiculous Partnerships.
Speaker 2:It is a Michelin restaurant partnership Because you travel for good food. I did it, I did it.
Speaker 3:I actually think that's true, though I think the Michelin company is the entire company is the same company that owns the restaurant. It's nuts right, Absolutely I only learned that recently on the Stuff you Should Know podcast. But yeah so good, so you're planning a garden.
Speaker 1:Are you planning things with these holes you dug or posts with these holes you dug?
Speaker 2:So these were post holes because we also got chickens.
Speaker 1:And I think I told you all this. Our listeners now know that I have chickens, but the chickens are not allowed to free roam inside of the garden during planting season because they will destroy things. I don't know if they'll necessarily eat everything, but they'll definitely destroy them. Yeah, 100%. And so we are. They're not ready to be outside. They're still very, very too little. But in preparation for them being outside, we're making a chicken tunnel.
Speaker 1:Are you familiar with this concept of a chicken tunnel? Not at all. It's a tunnel around the perimeter of the garden, like in the inside perimeter of the garden, so they can come out of the barn, which will be their indoor living quarters. We're not doing a coop, so they'll live in the barn and then they'll come out of the window, down a ramp and into the chicken tunnel so that they can eat all the bugs around the perimeter. And then we'll have a little door at the bottom of the ramp so we can let them out for recess inside the garden so they can eat, like the tomato worms and stuff like that. But they're not allowed to be unsupervised inside of the garden. So this is why we bought the chickens was for pesticides and eggs eventually.
Speaker 1:Yes, very ecosystem friendly. Speaking of ecosystems, we did it again. I felt like mine was more elegant, maybe.
Speaker 2:Mine was more B2B.
Speaker 1:Yours was more B2B, yours was more B2B, all right. So something I've been thinking about just had a conversation with a VP of marketing and was asking about you know what role did they play or what ideas they have around like partner marketing, and so one of the things they brought up was well, we know what our value proposition is, we're very good at developing our value proposition but, like, the joint value propositions are maybe a little bit more challenging. And one of the things that that sort of sparked for me was like what, in the development of a joint value proposition, how do you, is there a difference between a joint value proposition, a better together story, and then what we sort of talked about a little bit of this concept of the power up story, of the power-up story? So the value proposition, I feel like, is the foundation of a better-together story, but the better-together story is maybe more narrative-based and intended to be able to get the customer to understand the joint value proposition.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure on this. I can buy that. And then the power-up story is what you tell the sellers at your partner about what's in it for them, what the better, why is better for them? And so my question is like is there clear definitions between these three things, and if not, we should make them. And then also, who's responsible for those like is there? Is there, is the, the marketing team always responsible for joint value propositions? Is it the partner team? Is it the partner team plus the marketing team? And then, when it comes to this, to the power up story, is it an entirely different team, like perhaps sales or sales enablement go?
Speaker 2:I think the who's responsible, it's like the like constant racy decision it's always going to be.
Speaker 2:It depends on the different orgs and that like the argument can be made who should own which of these as the like responsible party making sure it gets done? Uh, but with that like caveat out of the way, it's like it's still better to have somebody responsible driving that train, because I know in the past where I've, I think, left opportunity on the table is because we get to the joint value proposition and it's clear to us, but then it's not actionable to the sellers. Thus the need to really focus on the power up so that it's more myopic and it fits within the overall sales story, so it doesn't force people to really think about the much broader sense. Again, it just fits within their, their normal operating. But how that compares to the, the better together, I think of it more as, like the, the case study, enablement of the joint, the joint value prop, and we usually probably do well at the better together. But that that power up is something that I've, that I personally have not spent enough time doing.
Speaker 3:See, when you say power up though I think battle card, because that's the language that I've grown up with so far Like, oh, let's get a battle card together for the sales team, and that's like the one pager. And we got a battle card for competitive intelligence. So here's your battle card for our talking points against that competitor, talking points against that competitor. And then they apply that to partnerships, which would cover everything. You're like here's what's in it for you, here's the SPIF, here's the talking points, here's a link to your proper enablement content. But I think you've done it In terms of like, how you just describe these assets. That makes sense to me. That's how I think I would think about them. Like the Better Together is a case study, it's a story. Like it's not just like. Like here's how we and this company went into this for this customer and here's what this customer achieved. Cause that's the tangible, I get it, I see it. Oh, click, okay. Cause value propositions could just be. I mean, that could be a lot of stuff, right, like features could be rolled into your value prop and you have to put all the pieces together. So I think they stack on top of each other.
Speaker 3:But I think in terms of ownership, I think that's a hard one because there's another team also you didn't mention that I'm seeing pop up more and more in terms of a structured team, partly because I live on one in the same way like in my full-time gig right now, and that's programs. So you've got at larger companies I would say you've got like partner managers and you have a programs team who is supporting the partner managers. In a lot of ways we're actually owning program design or however the company may define like program as a lane. It could be a lot of different things. Atlassian has some interesting program style roles, for example, but in partner marketing and partner marketing like, if they're not good at content, like some marketing people aren't great at like copy, but they're good at design. So I just think it comes back down to like who can do what on your team and how big is your team and where can they, can they go?
Speaker 3:But a lot of the times I'll still say to the smaller companies we seem to talk to and talk about, that all rolls into the PAM. It's the PAM trying to put everything together. So you got this one page long extensive narrative of right, you're right, your better together story and maybe it's only one thing that they know. And then there's the your value prop and your comparison, and then your battle card or your power up, which I think is less antagonistic. I like that language better Fits into game culture, at least for me.
Speaker 3:But I think I think ownership is tough. I think that really depends on your team, the size of your team, right. Who's, what kind of resources do you have? And then how collaborative do you want to be? I'm really seeing a need for smaller companies. They've got to. They do well, like Adam in your case. You have like marketing and partnerships together, right. That's kind of when your wheelhouse for you now. But if you can get collaborative with other people to help you pull this content together, then you start to spread that partner love around and that ecosystem idea around a little bit, so that people know you're there to help drive it. But they're not. They're feeling ownership over being involved. So I see as an opportunity to do that. But where are you going to get that help? I don't know. I've done some of all that because of ops. Ops rolls into enablement and anybody has to put up content.
Speaker 2:So yeah, but I think that power up has got to be more than a battle card, I think that's. That's still in that like. I find that like battle card ideas of uh as more of like static references that feel more like that uh, joint value proposition, uh, because what? Where I think about this is that it's got to be actionable, that's got to to fit into the routine processes so that it doesn't just live out on some share drive and never get actually access until someone says some word and then they go and they reference it because they're like oh, someone mentioned this partner is already involved in this deal. So there's reactionary use of enablement, thinking of the power up as being more proactive, as like getting it into their regular processes of prospecting, um to find the opportunities to bring them in, to accelerate and grow any of the relevant opportunities. Again, not from a reactionary standpoint, because the prospect or the customer happened to already mention the partner and then you spin it up that way.
Speaker 3:So you're pulling that into like the go-to-market rhythm as opposed to like a reference point. Okay, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I see it much more as the building out, the integrated go-to-market, as opposed to just the enablement aspect of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but then we get into enablement. Jesse, question for you who owns it when? If a partner's involved, does that automatically mean that partner enablement should be involved in creating these assets, or is partner enablement about enabling partners only?
Speaker 1:I think in the you know, the last couple of years for partner enablement roles that I have interviewed for, it was very much an outward focus and not necessarily an inward focus. The inward focus was there. They understood that there was value there, but I think it should be a two-way street. I think I've always argued that it should be a two-way street. I think that the onus of the flywheel and like getting the flywheel moving in partnerships is always on you and not shouldn't be, there shouldn't be an expectation that your partner will push on. That. It's a it's a rare thing to find a partner that's so into you that that they're going to do all that work without you pushing, pushing back, unless, of course, you're.
Speaker 1:you're the hub right If you're the if you're the hub spot, if you're the Microsoft or the Salesforce or whatever, or Shopify, right Like you can expect that partners. In fact, you have an overwhelming number of partners who want to be outwardly focused and be enabling your people.
Speaker 2:But they didn't start there, though, which is a fair point of that, like they grew and invested to get to be able to be at that point.
Speaker 1:Yes for sure, and they also designed a platform. Right, like on purpose. They they designed themselves to be the hub, which is a really good business, right, it's a very good business to be an ecosystem hub, and then, when you get to the closer to the hub that you get to be, turns out that you can then also be a hub too. This is like the Shopify Klaviyo, right, like Klaviyo exists because Shopify exists, but then there's an entire ecosystem of partners in and around Klaviyo, and so it's the same. You create these sort of little mini hubs, but that's neither here nor there.
Speaker 1:The whole point is that enablement is both. Partner enablement should be responsible for both. But it's like you have to tell the power-up story first, the what's in it for them why should they care? And convince them that it's good enough to like learn more, right, it's that motivational piece.
Speaker 1:Like nobody learns unless they care, and so you kind of have to hit on people's motivations first, and I think that's where that power up comes from, which means that you have to put a lot of thought into what. What is in it for them. Right, and to your point of programs, aaron, is like there has to be some kind of programmatic incentive to then be able to share in a power up story. So then you can share your better to. So then you can tell them what the better together story is and they can share that with customers, because the better together story is a customer, so it's a customer facing story. You want to work with both of these. Come, both of us, because this is the problem you're trying to solve. The better like I'm not sure that sales teams care about a better together story unless a customer cares about a better together story.
Speaker 2:It's a it's a better together story, it's a full solution story. Right, it's the sellers, especially in the enterprise, that are solution selling and that their prospects or growth customers have unique needs that are bigger or more specific than what their one company can deliver. Company can deliver, and it's in piecing, bringing in those partners, that creates the full best solution for that specific opportunity. And that's why you're right, it's not really about the better together, it's that it's the right solution for that specific opportunity. And that's what's going to motivate the sellers, because when you bring the best solution, going to motivate the sellers, because when you bring the best solution, it's going to close faster and it's going to close bigger because you're going to be able to cover down on all of those areas that the competition just isn't going to be able to do.
Speaker 1:I think that's what makes it so hard, though right? Is that, like, programmatically, we're not really thinking about the incentives to the sellers individually? Um, we think about, like what is the uh, the incentive to the company like each company is going to get, but we don't spend a ton of time on, like what each seller is getting out of that. Um, you, you do you have thoughts on that? Erin, you, you're smiling.
Speaker 3:I'm smiling because I think about that a lot personally. But that's because the longer I work in partner ops, the more I've recognized I used to be annoyed by salespeople heavily, because salespeople can get away with whatever they want, like your top sellers who are closing seven figures. They don't have to have clean data, they'll never have to have clean data. They get all the excuses in the world because they're closing seven figures a year. Right, they're in the top 10%. And I used to just be really frustrated by that because in ops you're constantly chasing and cleaning and you're just like well, that maybe isn't good for the culture. But then the more you go I've realized well, they know what they're doing right and honestly, it's like we have to do all this process to support sellers.
Speaker 3:And when you go, design partner programs and now and I've been doing program support and program implementation for years and then you constantly bump up against direct and direct doesn't want to play. And then you have to look at the numbers and you're like, oh well, no wonder direct doesn't want to play. When direct closes a deal, they get 20%. When direct closes a deal with partners, they get 20% of a lower number because partners get 20% and that's impacting their commissions. And so if you don't learn to look at the direct numbers and exactly how it impacts that lower person, you don't have any insight Like. Your program can die because you didn't consider exactly how the program model or the incentives were going to land on your top sellers and you didn't think about what that impact is going to look like. And we just lost the host. She just disappeared.
Speaker 2:The internet is a fun thing.
Speaker 3:It is a fun thing. I'm sure she'll come back. I'm not too worried, yeah, but that's why I was smiling. I was smiling because I do feel like she's right. We don't look at that, but we need to, and I see the impact of that all the time. Things aren't working because direct is like why would I engage? The partner has to bring more than their percentage of cut value to the deal for me to actually make more money, so they would rather run the dice, close a smaller deal that they get more of because their individual paycheck is still better.
Speaker 2:But that's a poorly designed program. Then, yeah, 100%, I agree. Yeah, the way where we are in the partners that we bring on and co-sell together, like we know that there are times that we take the lead and we're going to have the lion's share of the revenue. But that part of our sales process is identifying when we're deciding if we're going to take a backseat role in that opportunity. So at the same time we could have 5x the revenue, depending on some decisions we make on one opportunity.
Speaker 2:If you're following, I got to keep it a little bit vague, but the conversation comes down to probability of win and so our sellers are focused on what is the probability of win times? The revenue or work share equals the expected value, and so we're making expected value decisions, value decisions. If the probability of win goes up considerably by bringing in this other partner, even though our revenue is going to go down great, we're focused on the expected value revenue number, not the hypothetical top line, assuming we win 100% of everything and until an organization can get to that place with a growth team, then yeah, you're gonna be fighting uphill against.
Speaker 3:You know whole numbers the whole time yeah, but it goes back to my point, though you keep saying we, we, we, we right, and when you deal with a lot of organizations, especially some that are trying to adapt to partnerships after the fact, and they've been built on the back of direct with a lot of all-stars, it's difficult to get that we mentality, because those sellers, if they don't like what you're doing, it will not be hard for them to go get a job at a different company.
Speaker 3:Like they get to be relatively company and culture agnostic because they're good at selling, so they almost exist in, sometimes above the brand and above the culture, and that's the part that's always frustrated me. But on some level I've come to at least respect the fact that that is what is so from a partnership perspective. Like getting that we mentality that you've already got because you're bringing that from the top down part, that's a good mentality. But if you can't get basic things like parody, who's going to develop content and what that content means, like that can be, that's like a long tail battle against like great. Well, every time partner shows up, direct takes a hit and so they're never going to want to work with us because direct ultimately doesn't. They're making half a million dollars a year, whether the stock does well or not.
Speaker 2:Right I'm hearing, like, all of the reasons why it doesn't work. And so for those people that have that attitude, then I, just I, I work around them. I'm not going to convince somebody who's making half a million million dollars a year right now to do something different. That's just not where I'm going to start. Correct, no, it's not.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I think they have to be in a lot of times.
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Speaker 1:It adds friction and doesn't take it away. Well then, why are the top sellers doing it right? Does it add friction? Initially Maybe, but once you get going, create relationships, have a partner pipeline right, then all of a sudden some of the friction kind of goes away. It's like when you learn to swim right, it looks messy and ridiculous and you barely go forward. But as soon as you start to figure out what the stroke looks like, all of a sudden you're streamlined. It's the same concept. So I think, like having the program, having the programs that create these three things right, the joint value proposition, which is sort of that like single line of this is what we do better, this is what we do best in the market for the customer together. And then what is the case study and story around that as a customer story? But then none of that matters if your sellers aren't willing to tell it Right. And so that's where that like power up story comes.
Speaker 2:Is like what's in it for you, and I'm not sure that we're spending a ton of time understanding or how to tell that story to individual sellers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it comes down to the under, deeply understanding our own go to market and knowing where that fits in in an action standpoint. And to this point of you, know the elite enterprise seller. If we get that information from them that we can use them as the avatar fantastic, right. But in reality a lot of times it's a shadow partner program and we're not going to be able to talk to it it but in that case, this is where we start in the middle and lower performers that are the vast majority of the sales team. Where we're looking for our early champions that are willing to work with us in the very early stage, where that initial partner manager is getting way more involved in early deals to create pipeline, almost like a shadow SDR that then creates these opportunities for collaboration that you use to evangelize how fast that started going for this performer that all of a sudden went from whatever tier to the next tier because of this partner enablement.
Speaker 2:And you'll have that day to be able to tell that story and these are just your two paths to roam. But at the end of the day to your point. It still factors in what is the go-to-market process in your company? What is that power-up that relates to the better together and the joint value prop, so that you can insert very simply a 5% modification to the go-to market that the sellers are already running? That you're that one piece that fits in that unlocks an order of magnitude of impact. If we don't have that specifics, then we're already fighting upstream we're already fighting upstream.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like that? The tools and technologies in and around partner tech are designed to start poking holes before the program is ready to actually deliver on any of those incentives?
Speaker 2:I think that we try and solve a lack of process with technology. I think that we can manage five partners with a spreadsheet. This is the anti-Snyder method. We can manage five partners on a spreadsheet to hustle like shadow SDRs to test does this messaging really work? And if it doesn't, let's keep iterating in an agile format, because we've got to figure out what this, like true, better, together, powered up, go-to-market is, and I'd rather figure that out manually, uh, before I then bring in technology to scale it up shots fired I don't know if I think we're, we're just showing where Snyder comes in with way more knowledge than I do, so he gets to skip to stage three.
Speaker 3:No, on the day we're recording this, franz Joseph also made a comment, a very similar comment, and, adam, maybe you're riffing off that or you saw that this morning he opened this morning in a post where he also tagged me and Antonio from a conversation we had about where PR like back at Christmas, and he was basically saying he disagreed and you don't need any tools. It was really as Antonio put it. He woke up and chose violence this morning, which is the best LinkedIn post I've seen in a long time. But Franz was saying the same thing Technology can really get in the way in a long time, but, like Franz was saying the same thing, like technology can really get in the way, if you're trying to get to get to the point where you need scale before you bring in technology and I actually generally think that I agree and I think you two might understand that when I say that that I do think you need process, operational process and rigor. Jesse, in the interview you made for me today. That's like my first comment back to anybody who's wanted to buy a PRM is like great, what's your current operational process and rigor? Because if it doesn't exist now, buying a PRM won't fix it. If you can't get people to adapt even now to what you have, whatever that is, and you're trying to make that better, buying tech is not going to solve your problem. It never really solves the problem. And companies are building seven-figure partnership programs on the back of manual tracking and everything else. Right, like, like. So, at the end of the day, we have to acknowledge like most, if not all, partner tech is nice to have. I think we're moving toward a point where some of it is becoming necessity and we'll start to uncover that because it fits into the things you're talking about.
Speaker 3:Where do we fit this into the go to market? Right, how do we take? Like I'm sitting here thinking how do I operationalize, like cause, when you say power up story, now I'm thinking, like great, that should include SPF information. What's in it for you? Well, here's the SPF, right, here's what you get when you work with this partner. But here's also close rates with this partner. And here's recently one deals with this partner. Here's average deal size with this partner. Like I don't know what else might go into that, but that's making me think I'm going great. How can I structure and automate that in a way in a system that delivers that kind of information to my reps Because maybe they're completely ignorant on it. So, yes, we need enablement content. Yes, we need some fancy stuff. Yes, we need a learning center, but maybe in the system. How do we highlight that?
Speaker 2:And I think that's where AI is going to play a role Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada that should be interesting on that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do. One last thing on that, though, is I think that I think there's a plenty of partner tech that is must-have. That's not nice to have, but it's at what point. Like everything is nice to have at the early stages of a partner program, just as all tech is nice to have at the founding stage of a business, and so it's really a matter of at the at what point is the midsize of a partner program and a mature program when all of these things turn into must have, because it's the only way that you're going to scale.
Speaker 1:Agreed. All right, let's go to gratitudes. Adam, you be grateful.
Speaker 2:I'm the, I'm the most grateful. What am I grateful for On the spot? You know what? I've got a lot of really great collaborators in the day job right now. We made a really big epiphany translation moment I don't really even know how to describe it, but I've been doing a lot of go-to-market work and getting through to a different kind of ICP and persona on a new service and product that we're putting together and tried four or five different ways at getting at something, and then on the sixth one it clicked and all of a sudden we made like a mile's worth of progress, and so just the gratitude is for all the folks that had the patience, as we've like, experimented with different ways of pulling out this information, and then we finally found the way and it's flowing.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. I am grateful for Alex Buckles this week. I am grateful for Alex Buckles this week. He just is like really seems to believe in fluency and me and is doubling down and partnering with me and putting me in front of people and really helping. He's an enterprise sales guru and knows all the things. Uh, and I am, uh, learning hapless but learning Um and so, uh, I'm just really grateful for uh, and there are a bunch of people who have stepped up in this area to help me understand my short, where I'm falling short and how to fix it. So, uh, but Alex in particular has been really helpful. So thanks, alex Uh.
Speaker 3:I am grateful for the general situation I find myself in. I think, uh, I am. I am on a short sabbatical, which is nice to take a breather for the first time in my entire professional career, but also just heavily focused on some family stuff. It's just nice to have that time. It's nice to be at this point where you can indulge in some of the benefits and opportunities of having worked for a long time and take a breather, and that's nice. And also it's continually for anyone and everyone that stops and takes like a half hour to talk to me about what I'm building and give me feedback and encourage me or tear it down and give me new ideas. That is continually a um. Ultimately it's a life-giving process to go through that, to take something and be creative and share that with people and see how they view your creativity, and that's a new mindset for me. So I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Uh well, that's it for this episode of literal scratch. Uh, I don't think I've ever said that before, but now I did.
Speaker 2:Maybe it'll become a new thing.
Speaker 1:This is it. Scratch it off. I dig our shorter format. Yeah, you say that at the end of all of our shorter formats.
Speaker 3:We get it Adam, it's less time you have to spend with us, we get it. Adam, it's fine. Exactly, I was going to say glad you like spending less time with us. Get the scratch out of here.
Speaker 1:Get the scratch out of here. Bye y'all.